Talks of Outkasts
Welcome to Talks of Outkasts. This is a place where we fearlessly discuss life's toughest topics. Get ready for candid conversations and insightful reflections on a journey toward Biblical clarity. We are two ministers of the gospel, one pastor and the other a collegiate minister.
Talks of Outkasts
Is Ambition A Sin?
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Ambition isn’t the enemy, but the wrong kind of ambition will quietly warp your heart, your ministry, and your work.
Chris and Miles get brutally honest about wanting more, wanting to matter, and how easily “kingdom impact” language can hide a desire to be noticed, admired, or indispensable.
Chris opens up about the tension pastors feel when people start calling them by titles, respecting them—or, sometimes, not respecting them at all. Miles pushes the conversation into real life: What happens when the next person in your role gets the applause, the help, or the growth you wished you had? And how do you tell the difference between holy desire and hidden pride?
In this episode, you’ll discover:
- Why wanting to do excellent work, reach more people, and take on greater responsibility can be good ambition
- Where that ambition turns inward and starts feeding ego instead of faithfulness
- How ministry success, compliments, and visibility can quietly become identity traps
- Why disappointment and obscurity often reveal what your heart really wanted all along
- What it means to be fruitful without needing to be impressive
They also wrestle with the uncomfortable question every leader, pastor, and high-achiever eventually faces: If God made your work faithful but never publicly celebrated, would that be enough?
That’s where the episode gets real—and where the idols of applause, comparison, and control start to show.
Essential listening if you lead, serve, create, pastor, or simply need a sharper lens on the ambitions driving you. This is a conversation about ambition, contentment, and the kind of maturity that can work hard, dream big, and still let God decide how visible the results become.
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And welcome to Talks of Outcast, where we talk about ministry, life, things and such, and you know, the ridiculous things that happen along the way. I'm Chris. He's Miles. Miles, how are you today?
SPEAKER_01Oh, living living the best life as the kids like to say, or something like that. Something or another. Is that really what the kids say? I don't know. Honestly, I quit listening to the kids a long time ago.
SPEAKER_00I don't think I've ever heard a kid say that.
SPEAKER_01What living the best life?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I'm sure it's probably said in a different way.
SPEAKER_00Like Skibity.
SPEAKER_01I don't know. I don't know. No. I don't have no idea what none of that is.
SPEAKER_00Uh that's why I just throw that around because it's a funny sounding word. I don't even know what it means. I might have just said something vulgar and I wouldn't even know it.
SPEAKER_01All the all the YouTube and stuff's getting ready to censor us right there because you said it. That's right. Nice. I doubt it because little kids are saying it. So I don't know. Well, do they even say that anymore? Like that's how fast? No, I don't think so. It's how fast new dialect changes. It goes from day to day.
SPEAKER_00So and it seemed like it changed really fast to like this last go-around, like what's lit, you know. That's all stuffist.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, fire is still a thing. They still that's a new one. How how do you feel about the new one where everybody's calling everybody big dog? How's that make you feel?
SPEAKER_00I haven't heard that, but you know, I had um one of my young men the other night refer to me as Big C. No.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, did that invoke response? You're like, that's right.
SPEAKER_00No, I said no. I said, um never mind. I said uh No, no, no, no, no. No. We're gonna have to restart this. Because we've already gone off the rails. One of my um one of my staff members has started calling me uh Christopher. Oh, how so I had to I had to give him the old talk of uh you know, that's fine when it's just us, but you know, let's be careful with things like that when we're in front of other church members.
unknownIs it Christopher?
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean Is Christopher your name? Yeah, but you know, they're they're saying it in kind of a joking way, and and and and I'm always a little sensitive about you know being undermined. Yeah. I mean you just have to be careful with some of that stuff because it it's it's good for people to see you as a real person, but at the same time, you know, they have to trust your judgment, they have to trust your position and and and and and respect your position also. Sure. You know what I mean? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I mean, my name's not Christopher, so my name is Miles. So I mean it's kind of like you know, if someone was like Miles, I'm like, yeah, that's my name. Thank you. So do they call you brother? I get it, I get I get what you're saying. You're talking about if someone's like if I yeah, I get it. I know what you mean.
SPEAKER_00Do they call you brother Miles?
SPEAKER_01Uh that's a great question. No. What do they call Miles?
SPEAKER_00Or you just get your first name? Yeah. Which is okay, I don't care. That's something that's kind of changed, hasn't it?
SPEAKER_01Well, that's it. No, now that you say that, I was trying to think through. I mean, I've heard Brother Miles and Pastor Miles, but you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I get I get Pastor Chris sometimes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, that's what we call you. Like, all that's all we know you as here. Like Oh, not Pastor Idiot or Well It depends on who you talk to. It depends on what kind of mood I'm in. You know, I'm like, you know that, you know. Who's Chris? I don't know anybody named Chris.
SPEAKER_00It's funny. Uh it's um it's it's kind of funny because early on, I feel like when I started, you know, people use titles more. Yeah. So you were always, or I was always like brother Chris or Pastor Chris, but that seems like that's kind of faded out, which I don't mind. You didn't like being called brother Chris. I mean, you know, after a while you get used to it, and so it doesn't sound as jarring, but like the church I grew up in, we didn't call our pastor brother Herman. He he he had a um he had a PhD, so you know, his title was Dr. Hendrix, which was his last name. Yeah. And the thought of calling my pastor by his first name was just unreal to me. Like that felt so disrespectful and it felt so um I I didn't I didn't feel like I had that kind of an informal relationship with him. You know what I mean? Yeah. Even though even though he he really took me under his wing, um, I mean, we had a we had a what I would call a good relationship, but I didn't feel like we were friends. Does that make sense? No, yeah, I get it.
SPEAKER_01And so that's kind of like when someone calls you Chris or Christopher, there's that line of Yeah, like you know, everybody calls me Chris, so to call me Christopher infers more.
SPEAKER_00Right. Right. So yeah, but but over time you just get used to the titles and they don't really bother you. Um but um Yeah, but I think I think everybody just calls me Chris here for the most part. There there are some who don't, but but for the most part.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. That surprises me because I've like Southern culture is usually pretty um, I won't say influenced by title, but it's just like a sign of mostly most of the time you have a genuine respect for everybody, like a mutual respect for everyone.
SPEAKER_00It's a bit so yeah, it's it's it's definitely a bit more formal. I mean you you you can feel that in certain ways where it's it's just a bit more formal. Um But yeah. So nice.
SPEAKER_01But you know, if you if I was a doctor, I guess this kind of leads into what we're gonna talk about today. So um ambition and those types of things. So I'll let you introduce the episode and then I'll ask my question.
SPEAKER_00All right. Well, thank you for that smooth segue.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, how else do you segue? Because I was just gonna say, because thinking about ambition and then being a doctorate, like you're you have a master's degree, I have a master's degree. I told you you should do a doctorate, but you're like, no, I don't want to do the doctorate. In any ways, that's exactly how you sound like it's like that. I said it exactly like that. That's exactly right. Yeah, yeah. That's exactly right. And so um, so just just like kick the ball. Let's talk about ambition. What do you mean when you were thinking through this?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So, you know, for me, I want to succeed. There's a the the there's a real part of me that wants to succeed. I want the church that I pastor to grow. Um, I want my work to matter. Um, and if I'm being completely honest, I want it to be noticed. I mean, just just brutal honesty. Um I think I think we all we all have those things, we all have those things that we want that we're almost too embarrassed to say that we want. Because they feel it, it it almost feels wrong to to want them. And so I I wanted to kind of start here. Are pastors or even Christians allowed to say, I want more, without that sounding unspiritual? And that kind of builds on our episode from last week a little bit. Sure. Is is is wanting to have a voice, is there a way that that might be different than say wanting recognition? And and and then the flip side to that would be do we disguise our ambition as kingdom impact? Right. So so like we say we want to have an impact for the kingdom, when in reality what what we really have is is personal ambition to be noticed and to be thought of as being great. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. No, it makes sense. It does. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. No, you're good.
SPEAKER_00Well, I was I was just gonna follow that up by saying, because I think I think there are some people who say things like, um, I don't care whether my ministry grows, I don't care whether my church grows, I don't care about any of that. Is that humility, or do you think that there are some people who simply learn to disguise their disappointment that those things aren't happening as contentment? Yeah, that's good.
SPEAKER_01I think that when we look about this, you know, I think uh what you said earlier um about are we afraid to admit that we have ambition? You know what I mean? Like I'm I'm remember watching a show that I won't I can't condone, I guess. Uh but um, you know. Anyways, uh there are deacons who listen.
SPEAKER_00We need to be careful.
SPEAKER_01Yes, deacons and Lord knows who else. Right. That's it's crazy how fast a clip can make you famous. You know what I mean? Yeah. Uh but but there was one that, you know, when they talk about it's like an old timey, like kind of like um oh, I don't know, old world style. So they when they talk about ambition, like this guy's ambitious, meaning he's just wanting to take over, you know, the throne or whatnot. And so um they speak of ambition like a bad thing. And I think a lot of things like in Christian life, we'll which we'll get to contentment, um, we think about Paul. Um, and that's funny. Uh we think about Paul and how he was content. So we're afraid to say that we want more than what's in front of us. And and um, but I don't think that's uh I think it can be a sin, which is where we'll finish. But I don't think that that's a bad thing. I think it's just you know, thinking through about what you're wanting to to accomplish. Let me ask you this before we dive really into ambition. Do you think, and I'll be careful, um, because I know not everybody's in ministry, but do you think the fact that like working in the church isn't as revered as it used to be, that this changes kind of, you know what I mean? Like people don't hold the pastor as a high esteem position anymore. It's not, I mean, you read through history, through dawns of time, and ministers were influential people. Like, you know what I mean? Like they were high I don't want to say high society in the fact like they have money or nothing like that, but they were when they spoke, society listened. You know what I'm saying? Like their towns and uh those types of things. And so as the further we get removed from the church, I guess, if you want to use that language, the further we get removed from from those things, it seems like this job is less and less prominent. Does that make sense what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I think it depends on where you go. Sure. I I think it I think some of that depends on what part of the country you're in. Um I think some of that depends on um the people that you have come after. Um That's fair. And and I think I think sometimes it just depends on people's agendas. You know, um I've I've I've had people that you know treated me like I was really important because they wanted something, whether they wanted me to be more politically active or they wanted me to be more um vocal about whatever their particular issue was. And and frankly, I've gotten that from the left and the right. Sure. You know, because you know, the left, the left, you know, wants you to um speak out about certain things and the right wants you to speak out about certain things. And if you hold your ground and if you say no, I'm here to proclaim Christ and Christ alone, then you just end up making everybody mad. Right. And and so you know, then you know, then then they don't want to have anything to do with you. So I think it just I think I think it depends. Um I I don't yeah, I just I just think it depends on on where you're at. And you know, the longer, you know, the longer you're someplace and the longer people know you, I think the more respect that they have. But but I think I, you know, like I've I've I've served in places before where it wasn't it wasn't really a church issue, it was a culture issue in the community. Um I remember serving in in in one particular community where everybody who was in a leadership position in the community was a target. So whether you were a coach, whether you were the superintendent of schools, whether you were a principal, whether you were the mayor, whether whether you were um, you know, involved in in the community where where everybody just took shots at everybody all the time, you know, regardless of whether or not you were a pastor. If you were in a position of influence, if you were in a position of leadership anywhere in the community, everybody was just taking shots at you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so I don't, I don't, I I guess what I'm saying, Miles, is that I don't I don't think that's necessarily unique to the pastorate anymore. I don't think um, you know, I don't think that law enforcement is held in the same regard. I don't think that teachers are held in the same regard. I don't think that administrators of school, I I think, I think that's more of a cultural issue across the board when it comes to leadership than it is something that's unique to you know unique to ministry. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But I think that leads into the ambition side. So like as a Christian in all of these realms, like whether you're a cop, whether you're a teacher, whether you're um, you know, anywhere in public service, right? I mean, I know there's more to to those types of things, just in general, um, just in general, wanting life to be better. You know, we we hear, um, and I've preached from the pulpit even about being content, you know, not to understand and enjoy what you have. But there is also a sense of um, I think there's the a sense of where we should be, I mean, in some ways, ambitious a little bit because if we have influence in people's lives, and hopefully a Christian influence, right? Not not the other side of it where we're just, you know, in like I mean, because it you hear the word influencer today, and everybody freaks out and or not even really freaks out, or might even start to tune out because they're like, well, I see thousands of those a day of people telling me their opinion and their, you know, those types of things. And so um, it is an interesting thing to see the ambition um, the question come across. And I would say in in the in the reality of it is I think all of us um can some way and some shape say that we want um more, right? So what does that look like in a healthy perspective to say that?
SPEAKER_00Well, I wrote down some some things, um, and I'm just gonna fire them off to you, and you answer me yes or no, whether or not you think this specific ambition is um is sinful. Okay. Oh hot round, hot take. So yeah. So the desire to do excellent work. That's a good thing. Okay, I would agree. Yeah. Yeah, so uh so that one, the the this is similar, uh the desire to to be more capable than you are. Sure. Okay. The desire to reach more people. I mean, yes. Yes. Okay. The desire for greater responsibility.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Um the the desire to be recognized.
SPEAKER_01Am I like supposed to say no to some of these things?
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah. I mean, you know, so I'm I'm asking you. So, like, you know, as we think about ambition, I I guess I'm just trying to make the point that there are that that there are certain areas where I think ambition is good and I think ambition is appropriate.
SPEAKER_01And so you know, but I think with everything that you've listed is a fine line. There's like this fine line running through the the the the yard here. Because even what you just said uh about wanting to reach people, right? Isn't that what the last one was before I cut you off?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Of course you want to. I mean, as a Christian, you want to reach people. I mean, you should be, or even as a person, you know, I mean, our our command from Christ is to to go and make witnesses and and teach them the ways of Christ and disciple and baptize people and all those things. The Great Commission tells us to do those things. And so there should be a sense of wanting to reach people. It's I guess when does that become the fault, you know, the fault? What are we reaching people for?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So those the so the first four, I think, just taking at face value, which is how I meant them, the desire to do excellent work, the desire to be more capable, the desire to reach more people, the desire for greater responsibility, just taking at face value, not thinking in terms of, well, where does this start to cross the line? And, you know, if you add this to it, does it become wrong? So I wasn't really thinking in those terms. I was just thinking just in these strict, um, straightforward categories. I I think I think all of those are fine. I think they're good. I think they're right. I think that all of us ought to be, no matter what field that we're in, I think that we need to be thinking in terms of how can I be better at this, right? How can I because if we're doing our work as under the Lord, like the New Testament tells us to, um, then I think that that right there moves us in a direction to want to be the very best that we can possibly be. Sure. And I think, I think, I think that is good ambition. I think that's right ambition. Where I think that it starts to turn were the last three. So the last three were the desire to be recognized, the desire to be admired, and the desire to be indispensable. Sure. So I think the first four are uh just taking it face value, are faithful. I think the last three are where ambition starts to become a problem because it starts curving inward. Or now you're not you're not trying to be better for God's glory. Now you're trying to be better for your own glory. Sure. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's the I guess that would be the qu question as the Christian is how how do we discern these things? But you know, because you hear Paul's language, and I'm going to use his language, imitate me as I imitate Christ. That is a very interesting statement. You know what I mean? Because you can take that as ambitious. Because I mean, I know what he's getting to, because he doesn't just stop, right? Imitate me. He doesn't just stop there. Right. Because that'd be an interesting part of the chapter, right? Could you imagine reading the uh the letter to the church and he just says, imitate me and then moves on? You know, yeah. Uh it would change the, it would change everything. Uh and I I get that he moves into Christ, but sometimes we we hear that statement and it's kind of off-putting a little bit. You know, it's like, what do you mean imitate you? And and I think that's that's but this these things are I guess it's very interesting the topics we've been talking about, how closely they become, can become detrimental, right? What can be a what can be um a good thing can just easily turn south very quickly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, if you just if you just take, you know, our experience, um, if you work hard to become a better preacher um and you really discipline yourself and you really make the commitment necessary to be good at that, well, what begins to happen is people begin to tell you how much they appreciate it. And people begin to tell you how much your sermons mean to them. And and that can very easily, I mean, if I mean, if you're not, if you're not really careful and really on guard, that can begin to be planted into your mind. Yeah, I am a good preacher. Yeah, man, I'm really good at this. Yeah. Right. And that's just preaching. Um, it can turn and and and that can happen really um anywhere in in any field, you know, certainly not just ministry, but you know, you start kind of believing your own hype. Well, now you've got a problem.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, and so and so what started as something that was good and right and God honoring can easily turn into something that is no longer God honoring. Now it's you're just looking for a way to gratify yourself and to gratify your own ego. Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00And we and we've talked about that. I think I think we talked about that in season one of how do you handle compliments? You know, how do you handle when people um appreciate what you do. And and and we talked about the the constant need to be appreciative of those comments, to be grateful that you're that God is using you in people's lives, but yet at the same time never forget that this is all a work of God.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. That's so good. That's true.
SPEAKER_00Because and and so just to just to steer it back to ambition, there there are, there are things that scripture commends in the realm of ambition. So like 1 Timothy 3, 1, um, we are to aspire to meaningful service, right? Um Colossians 3 23 says that we're supposed to work with our whole hearts. Um you have the parable of the talents in Matthew chapter 25, where we're we're developing the things that have been entrusted to us. I think that it's I think that we can think of um seeking to please Christ, right? Second Corinthians 5, where Paul talks about that that we are to seek to live a life pleasing to Christ. Even 1 Thessalonians 4, where Paul says that we are to aspire to live a quiet life can be a form of ambition. And so it's interesting to me how New Testament really commends both um aspiring to certain things and quietness. And so however we think of ambition, if we think about it in terms of what the New Testament commands us, um ambition is not the elimination of desire it's reordering and aiming that desire in the right places and and and toward the right things. Yeah. Yeah. Because because you can because you can aspire to be faithful to your calling even if no one ever applauds you for it. Or or you can even want to be better at what God has called you to do and still be genuinely humble. Like that like those two things are not they don't cancel each other out. Yeah. Yeah yeah but but it go ahead. No no no you're fine I was taking a thought go ahead. No so if it then the question becomes well how do I know where my ambition has turned um I I think I I just wrote some things down on that. So like you know someone else's success begins to feel like your dis your dismin your diminishment like like someone else succeeds and that and their success makes you feel less like you're not joyful at their success you begin to feel like you're not measuring up. Sure. Or it's hard for you to enjoy work that nobody sees. Sure. Or you resent responsibilities that do not advance you in some way or or um yeah so you know when when those types of things happen, you know I think I think ambition has kind of gone off the rail. Sure.
SPEAKER_01Can can we can we get that's gonna be very crazy so you can decide to go this way or not but like we both are in a unique position. You're friends with the guy who took your job and I'm friends with the guy who took my job right and so when we think about ambition there are reasons um why we left. Now it's not I'm not saying that we left for ambition right like we left to get bigger or go to a bigger church or do bigger you know not necessarily but there's some of that is in there right some of that is of like okay um I sense that my time here is done and I'm going on right but there's also the other side of it of it's it's it's a it's a new it's a new penny, right? You know there's going to be problems with that penny, right? I mean that's not the issue. We know any job it doesn't matter if it's pastored or not this could this could go in any because if you work for a corporation you get a promotion someone below you gets your job and you know someone above you you took their job right so this is all across the board. And so watching this, you know you you see this, you're like, okay, I'm going to a bigger church bigger ministry um I'm hoping better pay goes along with that you know um but but these are things that we look at and pastors are no different than someone who's working at um the gas company or anywhere else. Like everybody's trying to progress in some ways. And so now when you think about those things um you've moved to those places and then because it is unique not all pastors are friends like you and I to where we could talk about our past ministries and be um it's what I'm what I'm starting to find is that my ambition um which is the sinful ambition where I start to see the sinfulness in me is that I start to critique what's happening. You know what I mean? Like not to them specifically and I don't know if he watches the podcast so I'm not really you know trying to get to a place where I'm just bashing them or nothing like that. Just trying to use an example of everyday life of where I look down the road and I see something that should be different. Right. Or or in the ministry that you were at previously yes or even that even that he's doing better then right or you know both sides of the coin. I mean and so you know thinking that through because I feel like this is where everybody can resonate with us because we're all in this little thing. It may not be in ministry perhaps but if you live in a town and you have friends who have a job as you do, you know there's a chance that you're going to progress further than them or they're gonna be further than you and this ambition that we get into turns into what we'll talk about next week of course but you see what I'm saying like all these things are leading up to the the thing is and so how do you how do you start to see where ambition has overtaken you in a bad way you know does that make sense what I'm asking because I feel like we can use our I hope this helps somebody that's listening um because there are things like when I look at your ministry because I've been to your church I've preached there you know and there's lots about the Southern culture that I miss um that that the just the warmth of it all and you know those types of things. And so there are ways in which I can get frustrated or even man or not even really frustrated even on the good side of it. Man, I can't wait to the day God calls me somewhere like that. You know what I mean? Yeah. And and I want to be I just want to be you know this is where the Christian ease gets in your way is you don't want to say the truth well I would love to be at a church bigger than this one, you know, or I would love to um have a different look or a different job or whatever it is um you know kind of how we have all this arc here my influence the growth opportunities kingdom impact in in those types of things. And um yeah I I when how do you how do you process all that? Does that make sense what I'm saying? There's there's a lot in I've been thinking about this a lot lately about how me and you are still friends and then how I'm friends with the guy who's doing my job and there are some difficult spots in there where you start to deal with yourself if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00Well and you know especially you know when you have to go in you have to clean up the mess the last guy made right I mean that that certainly that certainly plays a part and and and there were some messes that I made that that you had to clean up and um I I think for me um as I've watched you over the last year um at the church that I left um when I hear that things are going well um I'm genuinely genuinely happy for you and and happy for them. I I think I think we all struggle to some degree with when we leave a place we want to be missed and we want we want people to think of us and to think of our time there in a certain way. Sure and so if we feel like we're being forgotten quickly or people have moved on like there's a certain reality to that that it stings. Sure right um but but I think I and and and I think that's understandable um because if you pastor if you pastor well and you love people um it it stings when people that you love um don't love you in return. Yeah. And so I think that's normal and I think that's acceptable and I think that's honest and I think that's human. But when it turns into you feel resentment over the next guy's success, whatever that looks like I think that's where it's turned into something that needs to be examined.
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_00You know so like so like for you and and and for you it's even more difficult because you know I moved several hours well seven hours away. Sure. Right but five minutes down the road. Yeah yeah but you move three blocks and so for you it's a little bit different because you know you're you're you're still in that you're you're still in that community still in that ecosystem. So sure um you know I I think I think you can I think you can get to a point to where you know you become so critical in your mind of what the next guy who follows you is doing um that it's it's definitely something where you you have to examine your heart. Sure and if if you and and and this is something that only you know if if if it feels like it's something where you're even kind of hoping that you know he fails that's crazy but yes. Well I mean look hey people tune in because we talk real bruh that's right right that's right but but where you're hoping he fails um yeah that's obviously a problem and and and you probably need to go talk to a counselor no I just do talks about Cas podcasting. Right right well therapeutic this is for us. Yeah for sure or at least it is for me.
SPEAKER_01So probably not for you but well you don't you don't it was until just now until you until you just brought that up but yeah but but you know what's interesting is it's funny because you made this this uh how the how the podcast is going to go this season and it's funny because when I read some of them I'm like I really don't want to talk about that because that's uh that's a problem like yeah ambition for me is a problem a little bit yeah um and it's not even that I'm really looking to where I want to go it's more of how I'm leaving places I I like um I mean of course I have dreams I mean everybody has dreams but technically I'm in my dream right like my dream was to be a pastor and I used to and that's the part of me that gets frustrated with myself because you're like okay you've asked God to put you in this place now are you happy with it you know what I mean like he's done it right and now you have this idea well you know maybe he put it he could have put me somewhere else you know or or not even really that and I don't and I know that sounds so bad. So if you're listening to this and you hear you're going to my church that's not what I mean. That's that's as I promise you um I don't I don't I there are lots of things that are hard about this job. But there's been lots of good things that are that are about this job but I'm talking about my own self my own personal problems that I have um and so when I look down the road there are things like I had to tell him like quit telling me these things like I don't want to hear the the guy who took my job. Okay. Like I don't what people do for you they didn't do for me and and what you're saying is hurtful.
SPEAKER_00Like and and I know you're not trying to be hurtful and so like I okay so just to just to clarify like like he's telling you like good things that have happened.
SPEAKER_01Yes well and and and so really not even good things that happened the ministry but how people have come alongside him which is a good thing. And when I was here or when I was there um I didn't have those things. Right. Um and and I'm not and God is sovereign and so God moved me how may maybe I didn't get those things so that he could move me into this job. You know I don't know God's plan. God knows his plan and I'm just here living it.
SPEAKER_00So um well I think I think one thing you got to remember Miles too in all of this is that the ministry that you left wasn't the same ministry as it was when you got there. Sure sure and you came along at a very specific point in time um and you you built something there and it looked a lot different than it did when you arrived which is which is certainly not which is certainly not a shot at anybody who was there before you because they came along at a certain time also. And so in part the reason that some of those things are happening for that guy is because of the work that you put in to make it into what it is now. Sure. And and and I do understand I I do understand that resentment. I mean I've I've left places before where um you know the guy who came in after me you know they fixed up his office. Sure. Right when they didn't seem to care all that much about those problems when I was there. Sure. Um and so I can I can understand you know what it is that you're saying but but I think but I think you got to remember that God puts us where he puts us at specific moments and at specific times in a church's journey or in a ministry's journey. And so you don't know that had God put the guy that replaced you, had God put him in that position when you went there, you know, you don't know that it would have worked out the way that it did. Sure. Sure. And so you know be, you know, be encouraged that that would be my word to you is you know be be encouraged by that because um it it was a lot different after you left than it was when you arrived. And and I remember what it was like when you arrived. And and so um yeah.
SPEAKER_01But I think where I was and I do appreciate that. So I'm not trying to dismiss it. So don't don't that's not what I'm trying to do here. I'm trying to get uh to where I was going um oh I'm sorry no that's fine and I appreciate you and that's why we're friends um you know um is the fact that you know um I look at that and I'm very grateful that he has those types of people in his life that are going to make this ministry viable for him. I'm very very grateful for those things. But I think where my ambition gets me because this is where miles is miles starts to kick in is what could I have done if I would have had that help. Yeah how much more greater would my influence have been or how much bigger the ministry could have grew or the opportunities or you know and and and and and and even this one, this one really gets me because you know everybody wants to pretend everything isn't about numbers. You know that's a big thing in the Christian world. Well it's not about numbers but I have more than you you know you know uh and and where you get into trouble here is like this ministry here exploded because God is gracious and I mean we were reaching 20% of a campus. Now if you're in campus ministry that's unheard of like that's and it doesn't matter how big your campus is we're not going tomato to we're looking at where you're at your situation. Sure and to run 20% is is quite a deal and I can remember I remember sharing this with you when I look at our local um Baptist paper or magazine or whatever and it's got a picture of a collegiate ministry that quite frankly is is doing well but not very well it kind of kicks you in the face a little bit. And but that's that's my sin because I think that is sin. I and I know we can say well they could they could do better. They could but dealing with that now it's like Miles why did you really care? You know why why do you really why are you really upset? You know what I mean? And what began to show itself was my pride and and even ambition. I want people to know who Miles is you know I want I I I want people to say well man Miles knows how to do ministry. He knows how to do it okay you know we will say well because I don't want to be too wild uh but he knows how to do these things and and then I started to realize that I was losing the Christ aspect of it. You know I I was being pauled where I was saying imitate me but I didn't finish that sentence of imitate me as I imitate Christ. You know I think of when Jesus corrects his two disciples you know I want to be the greatest you know I want to be you know which one of us you know and he just gives them the right the the right act right there on the road um and and so when I started to think this through um and this has just been a recent thing really for me to think through um is is not necessarily growing and and impacting and those things, those are all good things, but but somewhere along the lines your your heart can change. You know before I was just I'm like I just want to be a servant preach the gospel do what I need to do do ministry. And then next thing you know you're getting success but you don't getting enough you know what I mean and so you're like feeding the monster and and that monster can't be fed because it's that's when that sin started to kick in more than the ambition of following Christ and and being impacting the kingdom. And I and I can look back in my life when I was a boat mechanic I wanted to be the best I want to be one of the best I want people to know who I am that's a little harder thing to do because there's lots of people who are smarter than you and been doing it for 20 years, 30 years, you know, and the same thing in the where we're at here um but my ability to preach can carry me a lot further than wrenching. You know what I'm saying? Like how I speak and those types of things. And so um this this goes across the board in all aspects of my life to where I've just wanted to as you said earlier I wanted my uh life to mean something or or what I'm doing to mean something. And um so ambition while it's while it can be such a beautiful thing it's also a dangerous thing. It's a it's a it's a it's a it's a that line is very thin I think in my opinion and that could be just for me maybe that line is thin.
SPEAKER_00So no I I I don't think that's just for you. I th I think I think one of the problems um to bring it over into ministry specifically is that um I I think ambition for us is especially hard to diagnose in our own hearts because just about every selfish desire that we have can be described spiritually. Yes I agree right I'm like like if you know if you know the language and you know the right words you can disguise everything as spiritual right I want to reach more people um I want to steward my gifts I want to have greater kingdom impact. I mean all of that can just be words to describe I just want to be on the big stage. Yeah or um I just want a larger platform. But but you but you can use words to describe that in a way that it makes it really hard for you to diagnose even in your own heart. Yeah. And so I think I think one of the questions that we have to ask is if God if God told you that your ministry would be genuinely fruitful okay genuinely fruitful genuinely faithful but never impressive no one would ever notice would that be enough I mean that that That's a very hard question, I think, for a lot of us to answer. Um and and and I think even sliding over into other areas, if God told you that your work would be genuinely fruitful, genuinely faithful, but no one would ever notice, would that be enough for you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I think I think that speaks to, you know, you were talking about, you know, the other the other ministry being on the on the front page. And I remember when that happened, and I remember I, you know, you may not know this, but there were a lot of us that were calling, you know, state headquarters, so to speak, sure, and ringing your bell to say, look, you guys don't know what's going on out here. You know, you talk about, you know, 20%. Well, you know, you've got college campuses in your state that have 30,000, 40,000 students. And so, you know, if they were reaching 20% of their campus, they'd be running 8,000. And they're not. And they may be running more numerically than what we're running out here at at our campus ministry. But in terms of reaching the campus, there's a lot more going out, going on out here. And, you know, there there are reasons that, you know, certain ministries are promoted and others are not. And and and and I understand that. But um, you know, there there were a lot of us that were making those phone calls, and and um, you know, unfortunately, a lot of them in in those terms kind of kind of went um unheard. Like they listened, but they didn't really hear. Yeah. Um and and but but that's a question I think we all have to answer is that if if if you could be genuinely fruitful and faithful, but no one would ever notice, would it be enough for you?
SPEAKER_02Sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's and that's um go ahead. Yeah. No, well, I was gonna say it's um very interesting because I remember having conversations with students. Um, one was a senior and she was getting ready to graduate, and she says, I just feel like my last four years have been for nothing. And and I remember setting there because you know, one of the hard parts about this job or just being a spiritual mentor is knowing how to say something without feeling like you're dismissing them. You know what I mean? Like and so I remember telling her using an example of like, well, what if your whole four years here was just for one person?
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01And that one person is um was it, was enough, you know, and and those types of things. And so I um looked at that and I just kind of think that through because she changed that one person's life. Like there were things going on in that moment and she changed that person's life. And and I just think about, you know, you think that you it your four years didn't matter, but it had a huge impact. And I think that's where I was getting to, even with what you just said, is like, even if I mean, I would have known, you know, you guys were behind the scenes, which may have changed something, or it might have just made me have a bigger head, you know. I mean, it just depends. It just depends. That's why we didn't tell you. That's right. I appreciate that. Um uh but but the thing is, is that's where that ambition crosses that threshold of sin, of in my own mind, my own heart, my pride, my arrogance, you know what I mean? All of that things that come along with chasing um that ambition, it it's just a quick line is because, well, would I be okay if I only ever see one person come to Christ preaching? Would I be okay? I mean, you know what I'm saying? What like what you said, if God said this is your ministry and it's gonna, you're gonna be okay, you're gonna do, you're gonna do well here, but it's gonna fade away. You know, like no one's gonna know necessarily who you are, necessarily. Would I be okay with that? And there are times in my life when that answer is simple and I say yes, you know, I'm I'm fine, I'm good with that. And then there are times when maybe we're going through hardship or or maybe things are going good, right? Like maybe I should get out while the getting's good. Um, you know, those types of things. And so uh that's a very good, very good question to ask. Um, and I think that goes across the board. You know, because I remember when I was I was doing the boat mechanic then thing. I got back into church, lots of things were going on. And my pastor, I went to him and said, I think I feel like I'm called to ministry. And some of the greatest advice I ever got, he's like, Well, if you can do anything else and be okay with it, do that, you know? And when I was doing the mechanicking, I was okay, I was okay at it. I was pretty good at it. I was okay with my life, my job, all those things. But I didn't feel a sense of completion, you know, like there was missing something. And um, I've never had that feeling in ministry. You know what I'm saying? Like even if I wanted to, like I want to be a pastor, but even doing youth ministry and then the collegiate ministry, I never felt like I was missing out. You know what I mean? Like there was that satisfaction of the job. And and so just just trying to stay in that lane sometimes is easier than others. You know, when I'm getting cussed at or yelled at about something silly to me, you know, or arguing about what kind of music we should do or how we should do it, you know, those types of things, you're like, man, what are we doing? But those days you're like, eh, I could go somewhere else, I could do something else. But, you know, ultimately God is is still using you to do things. And so I think that's that's the switch back to am I doing this for him or myself? And I think that's where, you know, Paul is encouraging Timothy, you know, your your trust is in God, not on anything else, um, and in coming to that place as well.
SPEAKER_00So and I think I think this is this is how we connect this episode back to last week's episode, because um it's hard for us to know what we expected ambition to give us until we don't receive it. And of course, last week's episode was, you know, when life doesn't turn out the way that you thought that it would.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um there are there are things that happen to us that if we learn how to read them, will absolutely expose the idols in our heart. Um, you know, um a door that closes can expose um a sense of entitlement that you have, or um obscurity can reveal whether the work itself still matters to us, not the success or the numbers or the recognition, but does the work itself still matter? You know, like somebody, I was talking with somebody about um podcasting and um, you know, that that things haven't, you know, in terms of um, you know, the audience, things haven't grown, you know, the way that I had expected and the way that I had hoped. And somebody just flat out asked me, well, if nobody ever listens, is it still worth it? Is it still worth it to you? And ultimately my answer was yes. Um, but what what I'm saying is that disappointment has a way of revealing to us where we have set up these idols and where we have set up these expectations, and frankly, where our ambition has become something that's sinful.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Do you think that it's because when life isn't working out that's where ambition starts to kick in? Sometimes, you know, like what we what you just said. Does that make sense? Probably not.
SPEAKER_00No, I think always I think I think it's more I don't think it's I don't I don't think that's where ambition kicks in. I think that's more like where ambition is exposed. Because I think the ambition's already kicked in somewhere, somewhere before. Sure. But you know, it it just it just exposes where our ambition lies. And and and and it and if you want to think of it like this, I think it also exposes what our ambition actually is. Remember, we talked about how you know we can we can disguise what our real ambition is with, you know, good sounding, good clean Christian sounding language. But when we're disappointed that things didn't turn out the way that they did, I I think I th or didn't turn out the way we wanted them to, then that's where I think that um we have these moments where, like I said, if if we know how to read them correctly, they can really help a lot with self-diagnosis and really help us to really understand what our ambition really was. That maybe my ambition really wasn't God's glory. Maybe my ambition really was my own glory. And um because, you know, nobody, nobody, I don't think, would reject the statement that God gets glory out of small things. Sure. It's not the only thing God gets glory out of, but but we certainly, I don't, I don't think we would say that God only gets glory out of big things. Right. Um I think I think God gets I think I think God gets gets glory out of the guy who's ministering or serving in a place where nobody knows, nobody sees, but he continues to serve or she continues to serve because faithfulness matters and because God has commanded this in his word. And so she serves because the work matters, and she serves because um because she wants to be an instrument of God, even if that means being an instrument of God in a in a place that nobody knows.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think God, I I think God gets real glory out of that. Yeah. That's good. So the the the goal is not to be a person who doesn't have ambition. I don't, I don't think, I don't think we're saying that. Um if you're listening to this and your conclusion is, well, I should want less, I I don't think I don't think that's what you're saying. I don't think that's what I'm saying. I think I think what we're encouraging though is to want better things in better ways. Because healthy ambition says I want to be more faithful, not necessarily more visible, right? Or or I want I want to develop what God has given me. I want to invest in what is got in what God has given me without making my gifts or my place of service or the fruit my identity, right? Or um I can I can I can I can see a door closed without feeling like my work and my and and my life has been wasted, right? Or I can I can celebrate a friend's genuine advancement and success without feeling like I'm less because they have done better. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01No, I'd agree. I would agree with that. I think the the real question, I think where we always try to come away in these podcasts, is really just for you to do some self-examinations. Um, because we do them as well. Like I said, when I read through these uh little tidbits of what we're gonna talk about, I don't really want to talk about it because it hurts my feelings or uh or maybe not hurts my feelings, but it definitely hurts the ego a little bit. Um because you realize as as you like to say, I'm not sure if you say it where you're at, but you're um you you are the worst sinner you know. Well, that's true for all of us.
SPEAKER_00I mean, so no, our friend, our friend John Marks uh broke me of that. Okay. Well, you know, John I don't think John listens to the podcast. John's broken me of a lot of things.
SPEAKER_01Well, it it takes someone uh with a strong personality to do some things like that. So yes, it does. Um, but the point is, is like, okay, well, why do I want to do these things and what's the point of it? You know, is it for glorifying me or for glorifying the one who gave me the ability to do these things? And so um just thinking that through um to to to kind of adjust, even if your ambitions are still the same, but you're adjusting them for Christ, not yourself. So I think that's where we're well in the end.
SPEAKER_00Well, well, I think I think I would close with this that that maturity doesn't mean that we stop wanting to do things that are significant. I think maturity means that we no longer need significance to prove that we are significant, that in Christ, the question of our significance has already been settled. And so the more we lock into that and dive into that, the more free we are to work hard, to dream um, and to accept disappointment and let God decide how visible the results become or don't become. And I think I think that's the real mark of maturity. Yeah, that's good. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's good. Well, as always, always good to see you, Chris. Um always good to see you, Miles. Man, that man, that time went by fast. Yeah, felt like a little bit of the old days. We weren't as depressed as normal. Uh and so you know what I keep I let's keep it light. All right, we'll finish there. If you guys have any comments, questions, of course, please comment, uh, leave them on there. We have seen them, read them. Sometimes I don't know how to respond to them, but you know, they're good. Uh, but we appreciate you guys if you're listening. Um, share this. If this helped you, let someone else know. And we'll see you next time.